A few shots taken during my brief lunchtime insurance twitch today
Martyn
A few more shots of the R B Goose. Whatever it's origins it is still a very nice lookin goose.
JohnM
Regardless of what the BBRC might subsequently rule, this will always be an escape in my book. Not that it's in my book as I haven't been to see it.
Re Chris Sharp's comments I think some birders think it has a chance of being wild. An unringed juv on the east coast in autumn not too far fetched surely. Would obviously tag on with first goose flock it finds. If those were Brents we would not be having this discussion. One of the few accepted Yorkshire records relates to a single bird briefly at Spurn on 1st Oct 1978. This bird later associated with Canadas further down the coast.
Re the Dormans Pool bird, it WAS accepted by BBRC but later rejected at the insistence of TBCRSC.
Not sure why geese seem to have to do so much more to gain favour with sceptics.
As with all of these things people make their own minds up, and ultimately we may never know it true origin (unless someone collects feathers for isotope analysis (anyone, perhaps TBC will stump up the cost?!?!)).
Cheers
Richard
I agree with Rich, if this was a Ring-necked Duck on Hemlington Lake or even a Snow Goose in a feral goose flock then I doubt anybody would be questioning its origins. If you change the record from a Red-breasted Goose to a Bean Goose and leave all other details (date, location and companion species) the same then everybody would be merrily ticking away. If people push for it to be pigeonholed as an escape, what do we then do if it promptly leaves with a group of Norfolk bound Pink-feet and relocates to Cley with the wintering Brents? Surely in this instance it would then be classed as genuine. I guess the TBCRSC will just present the details of the record to the BBRC unless of course they have proof of where it has come from. The BBRC are much better qualified to make an assessment on origin as they have access to behavioural patterns for all other accepted records and can research the numbers held in collection and captive breeding success. Birding is all about personal enjoyment, if you like the look of it then go and see it, if you think it's 'plastic' then give it a miss. I have been to see it and it will be added to my personal county list alongside Ross's Goose and Lesser White-front.
I thought I would throw my hat into the ring on this!
I have always thought that the British birdwatching fraternity is far less open-minded about birds such as this than, say, the more progressive Dutch. Some in Britain are far too hasty to adversely judge the credentials of a bird as a genuine vagrant on the basis of, say, tameness and/or species association. The first Red-breasted Goose I saw in the UK was in January 1987 on the River Deben in Suffolk. It was an adult and associated with a Canada Goose flock rather than with 1,200 Brent Geese which were feeding nearby. My second, also an adult, was on Islay with Barnacle Geese in January 2003. This supports Richard's comment that vagrant Red-breasts do not necessarily favour specific species of goose and cannot be discarded solely on this basis. It is also the case, however, that some 'Red-breasts' almost certainly arrive with migratory flocks of Brents and Barnacles, having latched on to these outside the UK.
Features of this bird which raise doubts as to captive origin include the fact that it is a juvenile, unringed, fully winged, 'clean-cut' with no obvious plumage wear and has appeared at a credible time of year. Tameness is grossly over-egged as a reason for condemning a species: if this is used as a key criteria, then all pelican species, American waders, the Yellow-nosed Albatross in Britain, and many others, would be discarded as 'escapes'. Red-breasted Geese breed in the remote Siberian tundra and winter in equally wild areas on the western shores of Black and Caspian Seas and the Tigris-Euphrates wetlands in Iraq and have probably had very little contact with humans, so an apparently fearless demeanor might be expected.
It will be up to our local Teesmouth Bird Club Records Sub-Committee to consider this record and submit it to the national British Birds Rarities Committee, who will make a decision as to genuine vagrancy or captive origin. It is significant that some who have already condemned this bird to the waste bin have made pretty speedy efforts to go and see it, demonstrating that even the sceptics have doubts!
Like Colin, I was remain open-minded concerning the Saltholme Ross's and Lesser White-fronted Geese and have also included these on my personal Cleveland List. Let's hope BBRC are open-minded with this record!
Well I've just got back from seeing it and what a cracking bird it is!. It seems to have a lot going for it to qualify as a genuine migrant, unringed, free flying etc.
It definitely seems a lot better than Bufflehead to me and that got accepted.....
Saw the bird yesterday and it didn't jump out as an escape to me. It was feeding fairly actively and had a feel of nervousness about it. I agree with all the comments above and very interesting to hear about the Yorkshire bird at Spurn that then teamed up with Canada's and got accepted! Lighting could strike twice.
What I do wonder is if it actually came in with Brent Geese and then broke up from them? Good time of year for small numbers moving down past our coast to their wintering sites in Norfolk.....
Although not sure of the origin of this bird, I thought it would be worth mentioning a Barnacle Goose record from Martin Blick's "Birds of Cleveland". Present from Jan to May 1998 in Stewart Park and Albert Park, Middlesbrough, the bird associated with Canada Geese and became so tame that it would take bread. The obvious conclusion would be an escaped bird, had it not been ringed in Spitzbergen. Similarly, I can remember in the late 80's a Wigeon that returned for two or three winters to Locke Park in Redcar which was wary on arrival and then became tame enough to take food, before disappearing in the Spring.
Aside from the goose, It maybe also worth noting that not all captive wildfowl are ringed and many in collections are in as good as condition as you would expect them to be in the wild.None of the Wood Ducks or Mandarins that I've seen in Cleveland have been ringed and all have been in pristine condition.
Damian
Hi Damian
I take it that the small collection on the hill at Saltburn (the source of the Egyptian Goose a year or two ago) doesn't have Red-breasted Goose? Someone told me the few wildfowl they had were no longer there anyway.
Also, is there a collection at Rushpool Hall? Someone in the hide at Scaling thought there was, but I went to a wedding there last year and didn't see any sign of one.
Clearly we need to rule out local sources for this bird as part of the assessment process. Hard to believe anyone is breeding Red-breasted Geese locally though.....
Cheers, Graeme Joynt
Hi Graeme,
I don't know if the collection at Saltburn Bank is still there or not.
When I worked at Rushpool Hall (22 years ago) there was a small collection of wildfowl on the pond by the entrance,I can't remember exactly what this included but I do remember there were several Barnacle Geese and one or two very small Canada geese amongst other ornamental ducks.
I was last there about 8 years ago and this pond had very little on it although they had cleared a previously overgrown pond at the back of the hotel and added wildfowl type nestboxes but I didn't see any waterfowl.
Then there is the collection near Scaling Dam and the pond near Guisborough Hall (do they add waterfowl to this pond?)
A quick search on the internet today has revealed that quite a few counties in the UK have Red-breasted Geese,etc for sale. Included is this one near York, http://www.yorkwildfowl.co.uk/index.htm
Look what's on the homepage !
The list of species available is amazing.
Quite clearly these, and many other waterfowl, are fairly common in collections and there must be private collections nearby that nobody knows about ?
The Irish Rare Birds Comittee stance on Red-breasted Geese makes interesting reading
http://www.irbc.ie/announcements/announce4.php
I don't know what will happen about the Cleveland bird,enjoy it for what it is,a beautiful bird.
If you want to tick it then go and see it,if you don't want to bother with it then don't.
Clearly, there are plenty of exotics waiting to test us on our doorstep
Regards
Damian
Thanks Damian, intersting stuff. I guess the big difference with this bird is the fact it is only a few months old. So not only would we be looking for a collection, but one where they actually breed successfully....
Cheers, Graeme
Hi Graeme,
As they are offered for sale so frequently then surely they must be being bred by collectors throughout the UK.These are then presumably offered for sale to anybody.So if the bird is an escape it could have come from anywhere and maybe not locally.
Regards
Damian
Here are a few video clips of the bird taken from the hide at Scaling Dam when you were there Damian and then Harry M:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jr_studio/6221070372/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jr_studio/6221070372/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jr_studio/6221157212/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jr_studio/6221157212/)
I dont think there are collections at either Rushpool or Saltburn Bank now - I havent seen the Egyptian Geese at Saltburn recently, or anything else, and the collection at Rushpool seems to be restricted to some domesticated white geese, peacocks and mallards. Not sure what has happened with the collection at Priory Pond in Guisborough - I saw a Pink foot on Skelton Beck at Apple Orchard last year that I attributed to this collection.
Something that did concern me about this bird is the fact its tail looked a bit worn to me?
A few more shots of the Goose, as it came closer to the hide today (10th).
Is the last shot an indication of what the Goose thinks about all the speculation on it's origin?
JohnM
Here is something to consider!
I have just checked out the geese on the North Tees Marshes and there is a juvenile Brent Goose with the feral Canada Geese on Saltholme West! Do I count this or relegate it to the 'plastic' bin and not bother sending in a record slip; after all it is associating with Canada Geese rather than a nearby flock of Barnacle Geese and Pink-feet on Back Saltholme. Incidentally, this is the Barnacle Goose flock that has hovered around the 40-50 mark since their suspiciously early arrival date but has now increased to 63, how do we decide which of these are genuine. This is an area where I have seen Cape Shelduck, Speckled Teal, Chestnut Teal, Bar-headed Goose, Black Swan, White-headed Duck, Ruddy Shelduck, Lesser Scaup, Ring-necked Duck, American Wigeon, Lesser White-fronted Goose, Snow Goose, Ross's Goose, Egyptian Goose, Ringed Teal and Hooded Merganser. Some of these have been deemed acceptable and some not. The origin of wildfowl seems a harder nut to crack than the origin of species!
Col
Quote from: AKinghorn on October 08, 2011, 08:03:27 PM
Something that did concern me about this bird is the fact its tail looked a bit worn to me?
looking at Martyn Sidwells flight shot and John M's "bottom" photo the tail looks fine to me! Anyone disagree?
Having seen the bird myself (just happened to be passing of course ;) ) i'm finding it hard to make my mind up about this bird. Rare Wildfoul are of course one of the trickiest species groups to judge upon but i prefer to go along with Inoccent until proved guilty. I believe White-headed Duck and Ross's Goose should be on the British and County list. Not so sure about the Lesser White-front though...and yes i did go and see it!
A few thoughts going through my mind though are firstly if this bird had not re-located to Scailing Dam would we be having this discussion at all? I know some local birders did go looking at Saltburn so maybe we would?
Using whats held in captivity as a tool for judging if a bird is acceptable or not is a none starter, almost everything is held in captivity, especially so with Wildfoul!
I'd guess a lot of Cleveland listers are calling in to see this bird for "insurance" purposes only and not because they believe it's wild!
Like Jamie has already stated the 94' Bufflehead was accepted by BBRC but with the comment "The publication of these records (refering to the Nottingham and Cleveland Bufflehead records) does not constitute any official endorsement of their status as wild birds, but merely that in both cases their identification was established beyond doubt". Could the same happen again with Red-breasted Goose?
It's interesting to note that the October 1978 Spurn bird (an Adult) re-located the same day to Covenham Reservoir in Lincolnshire and later to Kent (all records accepted by BBRC as the same).
Sorry for waffling on...
Ian.
Just wondered what the reason(s) were for not accepting the previous record of Red-breasted Goose ?
Hi Damian
It was initially accepted by BBRC but this was later reversed at the request of TBCRSC (The request had to be made twice!) and the single observer from outside the area considered it a prob escape. The questioning of the decision was based on the fact that what was obviously the same bird relocating to Nosterfield was deemed unacceptable by BBRC, a strange case of double standards. Seemingly a coastal bird was rated better than an inland one.
Cheers
Richard
Hi Richard,
Many thanks for the info, I was just curious as I hadn't heard much about this particular record.
Regards
Damian
Noticed BirdGuides and RBA have given it the kiss of death with the "presumed escapee" tag, does anyone know if they know something we don't?
Another point is that these birds cost well over a hundred quid. Surely if you went through all the work of hatching and rearing, you would take the simple steps to pinion or keep the bird cut down; not simply let it fly away.
If it is captive bred, the owner is either daft or has too much money..
Birdguides is doing what most do with wildfowl, having a good guess..
The story so far:
- Bird turned up on its own on a beach at Saltburn, since then singles of a few species have been turning up in the area (Brent, Pink-foot).
- The bird then flew inland and joined the local Canadas/Greylags at Scaling Dam
Then all of a sudden its put out as an "a presumed escape", "escape", however you want to put it. Do they know something those who have seen the bird don't?
From what I understand and have been told no Red-breasted Geese successfully fledged young this year in the UK, eliminating the possibility of the bird being from fence-hopping parents.
So from my understanding this bird is either;
1) The Real Deal!
2) An escaped bird from this year.
Still sitting on the fence, but gradually leaning to one of the above.
Here is a blog entry to add to the debate from Yorkshire:
http://yorkshirebirdingmagazine.blogspot.com/2011/10/wild-goose-chase.html
cheers
James